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Re: Consumer Alert-- Homeopathy is a Fraud
Mon, March 17, 2008 - 3:51 PMi agree with you there but look out you are sure to get flamed around here for that i bet. -
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Re: Consumer Alert-- Homeopathy is a Fraud
Thu, April 10, 2008 - 10:42 AMI would like to state that I do strongly believe in the power of the placebo, and if homeopathy helps with that then good for it. Anything that can trigger the body and mind into healing itself is just fucking groovy with me. But what I need is a placebo that I don't know is a placebo! I need to stop researching medical stuff lol -
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Re: Consumer Alert-- Homeopathy is a Fraud
Thu, April 10, 2008 - 11:00 AMChris - Placebos don't actually trick the body into healing itself, what they do is trick the mind into feeling better (not quite the same thing!). -
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Re: Consumer Alert-- Homeopathy is a Fraud
Thu, April 10, 2008 - 11:02 AMWhich means they can be very useful for psychosomatic conditions and for altering people's perceptions. -
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Re: Consumer Alert-- Homeopathy is a Fraud
Thu, April 10, 2008 - 3:32 PMi disagree there, there is evidence that they do actually trick the body into going into a healing mode and releasing certain chemicals, it's no different that slowing your metabolism with thought really just a bit more brain chemistry going on there. -
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Re: Consumer Alert-- Homeopathy is a Fraud
Fri, April 11, 2008 - 10:13 AM"Healing mode"? All that it takes to go into a state conducive to healing is relaxation and ultimately some regeneration only goes on during sleep states. Is that what you're talking about? It's not at all analogous to taking an actual medication that actually does something. -
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Re: Consumer Alert-- Homeopathy is a Fraud
Fri, April 11, 2008 - 2:21 PMHere, here, Diane. Thank you for that thoughtful & thought provoking respectful post.
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Re: Consumer Alert-- Homeopathy is a Fraud
Fri, April 11, 2008 - 3:38 PMNo I'm talking about your mind neurochemical and hormonal processes that the mind can trigger via things like a placebo, I think we and this argument before, no? Boy I thought I was skeptic.
www.scribd.com/doc/2847/R...-Psychology
Check out pages 131, 132, 136 In chapter 17 there is also good info on the subject in chapter 15 starting at page 119.
those who are interested can read up and enjoy but I won't be back here to argue this into the ground again.
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Re: Consumer Alert-- Homeopathy is a Fraud
Sat, April 12, 2008 - 5:48 AMChris - You referred RAW's book and ignored contemporary neuroscience last time too *shrug* -
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Re: Consumer Alert-- Homeopathy is a Fraud
Sat, April 12, 2008 - 11:19 AMfeel free to post your information that contradicts that, I haven't seen anything disproving the work, the studies are sound. -
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Re: Consumer Alert-- Homeopathy is a Fraud
Sat, April 12, 2008 - 12:52 PMJust to bring you up to speed on some of the actual contemporary science regarding placebo affects. I understand you're attached to the theories RAW advanced and believe in them. Personally I'm just more interested and curious, and my beliefs are flexible about placebo affects. For instance, I'm not particularly surprised that people report that "expensive" placebos make them feel better than "cheap" ones (which speaks to the influence of levels of faith and emotional investment in terms of perceived, temporary benefits).
I can make someone feel better temporarily by hypnotizing them (and have done so before) but what I usually do is teach someone how to get into deeply relaxed states by themselves.
www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/
www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/
But, really, placebos have nothing to do with homeopathy unless you think homeopathy only generates placebo affects and homeopathic remedies have no innate healing properties (which is essentially saying homeopathy is a fraud since that's not what homeopaths believe or the basis of homeopathic theories and principles of medicine). -
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Re: Consumer Alert-- Homeopathy is a Fraud
Sat, April 12, 2008 - 5:42 PMInteresting articles but I still don't buy it. Anyone that says ... "There is no compelling evidence that mood or thought alone can help fight off cancer or any similar disease." has to be full of it. There are way too many studies proving that thought can help you heal.
As for homeopathy, I think it's bull but like I said if it works for some placebo or not then to each his own I suppose. -
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Re: Consumer Alert-- Homeopathy is a Fraud
Sun, April 13, 2008 - 6:24 AMChris - I'm not selling anything, placebo or otherwise (though you'd be more likely to buy something from me and be emotionally invested in what I'm saying if I was charging you a lot for this information ;-). I'm just offering up a resource that addresses some of the complexities of the subject, which you can take or leave. As someone who has work helping people understand the body/mind connection, lifestyle related issue and with managing the cognitive aspects of chronic pain, I'm certainly not claiming that mood doesn't affect how we feel (that would obviously be absurd) but feeling happy isn't the same as actually being physically healthy or affecting any form of physical healing. Certainly depression isn't healthy because it leads to all kinds of unhealthy behaviors (and lack of health supporting behaviors) but at this point any link between cancer and optimism/pessimism has been ruled out (as much as quacks like to tell people that their being sick is their own fault for not being "good" enough and that if they're "good" enough they'll be healed). As much as we all like to believe that good things happen to good people, good things also happen to grouchy old murdering bastards and horrible things happen to small children so innocent they sparkle every single day (preventable horrible things).
There is no evidence actually that being optimistic can "help you heal" or that cancer patients survive longer if they're positive. What is true is they have a better reported quality of life while alive (just as optimistic non-sick people report) and this is obviously something very worthwhile. I'd be interested in seeing this multitude of studies - if you tell me who ran the experiments I can look them up in PubMed.
And, of course, we can just agree to disagree again and that's fine. I just wonder why you keep wishing there was a placebo that could do what you wish when all that you'd need to do is to practice daily meditation. So why not just meditate and do affirmations? The most basic element of being healthy is eating well and exercising, you'll find that this will have a bigger affect on your mind (since it will have an effect on your brain). Do this and you'll be working with both your body and mind to improve your sense of well being and your health, no "tricks" or placebos needed. It won't cure cancer but it will help you to feel as good as you can. -
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Re: Consumer Alert-- Homeopathy is a Fraud
Sun, April 13, 2008 - 9:14 AM"There is no evidence actually that being optimistic can "help you heal" or that cancer patients survive longer if they're positive. "
I know you are not selling anything Fifi but I wonder what makes you so sure of your position, I forget, are you an MD? Maybe we are discussing different things here. This information is all over I even recently saw a special on the BBC where they followed a case where they made a small tissue injury on the arms of about 20 or so patients and the ones that were stressed out by their jobs didn't heal as fast, other than that they had no other differences. Clearly mood effects healing rate. Now you might be able to get me to say that good mood just gets out of the way of our natural healing systems which can perform wonders if they are active, but short of that I just don't see where you are coming from here.
Fifi I think I see what you are saying and I'll admit some studies show that you may be partially right, but I think that more and more we'll see the mind body connections power when used properly. If monks can lower metabolism through thought and such I think with more energy dedicated to studying the effects, the more we will see how we can control our bodies natural healing powers.
"Optimists do better than pessimists in almost every aspect of life including how well their immune systems function." -Dr. Weil -
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Re: Consumer Alert-- Homeopathy is a Fraud
Sun, April 13, 2008 - 9:30 AMChris - I don't have a "position" as such, I'm open to new information as it arises. I have some pet theories but I have no problem putting them down if they're not viable, simply because I'm genuinely interested and curious. If you're actually interested in the science I'd be a bit leery of trusting mainstream news sources (even the BBC or CBC) simply because a lot of "science" reporting tends to involve hype and be driven by commercial concerns (as does a lot of reporting). Can you link to the BBC article or to the actual study?
You can very easily slow down your own metabolism right now by breathing slowly and deeply (as one does when one meditates). You will find that if you do this your mind and thoughts will be influenced by your body (since your brain is part of your body :-). I know it's tempting to believe we can control our health and the world through our thoughts, and certainly our thoughts define our experience, and we can certainly influence our physical state with our thoughts and have more control over physical processes than people who are unaware of this believe. it's not some form of magic though and the evidence indicates that positive thinking doesn't result in better survival rates. That doesn't mean that quality of life issues aren't worth addressing for people who are suffering just because quality of life isn't curative. Do you meditate? -
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Re: Consumer Alert-- Homeopathy is a Fraud
Sun, April 13, 2008 - 10:26 AMI understand what you are saying and I try to stay open to new info as well, but I have a hunch that what I feel on this subject is correct but who knows.
Yes I do meditate, I'm not great at it but it is nice sometimes when I can pull off a good one.
Would you concede that thought can influence our immune system?
The BBC study I think the BBC show was called "The Human Body" (not the Discovery version which sux by comparison) and I think the BBC is usually decent when it comes to science, much more accurate than the stuff they produce here for Discovery and such. I'll see if I can track down the episode later today, I saved the show on an old HD. -
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Re: Consumer Alert-- Homeopathy is a Fraud
Sun, April 13, 2008 - 11:18 AMChris - Ah, it was a TV show. They probably don't actually refer to a particular study then.
How can I "concede" something that is unproven one way or the other? Like I said already, I'm interested in what is not in being "right". I'm okay with not knowing something that isn't known *lol* Neither of us can definitively know whether thought influences the immune system at this point, and it certainly it doesn't seem to directly so far. (You may be interested in some of the research in neuroscience that seems to be indicating that thought is less causative and more an....um....afterthought. It's strange and interesting stuff that opens up more questions than provides answers, as much really good science does :-) Science prepared for TV tends to sacrifice complexity for the director's narrative arc and for viewing pleasure - that's not always a bad thing but it's not the same as dealing directly with the actual science (which quite often says something quite different than is being reported in the media, usually due to a nice juicy push by someone who profits somehow).
Why exactly do you think you're "not great" at meditation? And what does "great at meditation" mean to you?
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Re: Consumer Alert-- Homeopathy is a Fraud
Sun, April 13, 2008 - 11:42 AMChris - I do believe that it is worth getting to know our thought processes and creating as pleasant an experience of being in our bodies and living as well as we can. -
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Re: Consumer Alert-- Homeopathy is a Fraud
Sun, April 13, 2008 - 10:15 PMI am now almost sure it was actually a special called...
"Alternative Medicine- The Evidence-Healing" with Professor Kathy Sykes
here is the link to the synopsis, but not the episode I mentioned called "Healing".
www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice...native.shtml
but it's good stuff. It covers a few placebo studies (fake surgeries even), one on pain killers that shows that a saline placebo caused patients to release dopamine from the brain. The same scientist is now doing a series on alternative therapies and I'm downloading the "Meditation" episode now, should be fun.
As for my meditation my main goal is to quiet my mind and that is why I say I am not very good at it, I have an overactive brain that doesn't rest easily, but it's fun and I'm working on it :) -
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Re: Consumer Alert-- Homeopathy is a Fraud
Mon, April 14, 2008 - 5:44 AMChris - I'll have a look on PubMed and see what studies Professor Sykes but even it's good to remember that TV is first and foremost a medium of entertainment. I see she's a physicist not a biologist and is pretty heavily invested in promoting CAM so my bullshit radar is already going off *shrug* -
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Re: Consumer Alert-- Homeopathy is a Fraud
Mon, April 14, 2008 - 6:08 AM -
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Re: Consumer Alert-- Homeopathy is a Fraud
Mon, April 14, 2008 - 7:40 PMtrue, and that doesn't surprise me on that episode in particular, they may have stretched it for acupuncture, But to discredit all of her shows based on some objections is going to far, I don't think they lied about many of the basic studies especially in the episode I mentioned on her earlier series.
It isn't thing only thing I have seen or read like it but it's the one I saw most recently. Trust me here I am a skeptic quite often but I have seen to much to ignore what i think is a big part of medicine which is only starting to be understood, and that is the brain/body's power to work wonders. -
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Re: Consumer Alert-- Homeopathy is a Fraud
Mon, April 14, 2008 - 7:45 PMBy the way, if you talk to any psychiatrist it's a well known fact that optimists recover faster than pessimist from injuries of all kinds. There is even one health insurance company (maybe BC, can't recall) that sometimes has their pre surgery patients listen to positive thought audio recordings before surgeries because it was shown that they save tons of money since the recovery rate is much faster that way. Now you could argue that it is only because they are blocking out pain or ignoring discomfort but I would put $ down on that not being the case. -
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Re: Consumer Alert-- Homeopathy is a Fraud
Tue, April 15, 2008 - 5:27 AMChris - No, not all psychiatrists believe what you propose. If you're going to make a claim to authority in this way then can you please post links to the studies that support your claim. Continuing to present fuzzy, anecdotal evidence like this is belying your claims to skepticism ;-) I think you greatly underestimate the diversity in psychiatric opinion on many subjects and the diversity of treatment approaches used in psychiatry.
Seriously, you're welcome to have faith in the idea you hold but please stop trying to present it as a clinically proven fact.
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Re: Consumer Alert-- Homeopathy is a Fraud
Tue, April 15, 2008 - 5:16 AMChris - No, I don't trust that you're a skeptic ;-) Repeating it doesn't make it so, actually applying some skepticism does. I've yet to see you actually be skeptical (quite the opposite actually). That said, I totally respect your right to believe as you will based on whatever you want as long as you're not hurting anyone else. You're hardly the only person out there who wants there to be a magic sugar pill/tirual/guru that offers magical, painless life and endless joy. I find it kind of odd that you think medicine is "ignoring" placebo affects when I've linked you to various professional articles and discussions on the placebo affect. -
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Re: Consumer Alert-- Homeopathy is a Fraud
Tue, April 15, 2008 - 10:29 AMI hardly fit the category you speak but thanks for misunderstanding me, I'd say I'm a skeptical optimist really.
I think that along with the rest of medicine the mind body connection can do quite a bit of helping work and we should use what we know and do the research to see if there is more to it. Like I said every trained psychiatrist I know (about 5) agrees that optimists heal faster, they even taught that to my wife at SFSU when she got her degree there. I don't collect records of every study I hear about and many are not on the web. Although I am very skeptical of many things like homeopathy and overblown acupuncture claims also don't assume that every Doctor that speaks a sentence on a TV show is lying. There is such a thing as educational programming, not everything has to be learned from studying the latest medical books and thank Bob for that. I don't have the time to find every study out there to prove you wrong but like I said they are out there.
I'm not saying the mind and body can cure any old thing just yet, but perhaps it can do much more than we even know now. I think further research needs to be done to understand how these things work. But to deny the basics such as optimists and less stressed people healing from things faster is to bury your head in the sand. Any Doctor will tell you stress kills, if that wasn't true why would more people die on monday morning from heart attacks than any other time (you can find that statistic easily)?! Now knowing that how can you say the mind body connection doesn't exist? Maybe you had some bad experience with some new age jerks trying to cure you of something and it didn't work, it doesn't mean it isn't possible.
I think we have beat this subject into the ground now but if you insist I can repeat myself over and over all day here. -
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Re: Consumer Alert-- Homeopathy is a Fraud
Tue, April 15, 2008 - 12:34 PMChris - Ah yes, back to "prove you wrong". You seem like a nice enough guy but discussing things with you always seems more about proving an already held belief than any actual curiosity. This kind of thing tends to lead to a confirmation bias. My experience comes from working in a pain clinic helping people understand and use the body/mind connection to manage pain. I'm more interested in what actually works and creating effective tools than proving a theory "right". My experience was that realists healed much faster simply because they took realistic action. In my experience, both overly optimistic and overly pessimistic people tended to have more issues simply because neither of them were being realistic. Though that's just my experience and anecdotal so I'm not offering it up as proof of anything. -
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Re: Consumer Alert-- Homeopathy is a Fraud
Tue, April 15, 2008 - 2:32 PMFair enough, but I don't have beliefs, those are too rigid, what I do have is what I experience and in mine I have seen and heard plenty to go with my hunch and I don't have the time to spend hours of my day to explain it all to you. You don't seem to get what I'm saying and I'm sure if we spoke IRL perhaps it would be different but this is a silly place to argue.
I just want people to think maybe, rather than yes or no on the subject, then they might actually look into it and learn something.
Enough already with this, go ahead and respond so you can have the last word, I grow tired of this and I think people are smart enough to come to their own conclusions here despite what me, you, or science claims on the subject. -
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Re: Consumer Alert-- Homeopathy is a Fraud
Tue, April 15, 2008 - 2:49 PMOh and by the way you act like I'm some nut trying to say God created man but that isn't what is going on here. I gave you my points of reference but for some reason you think that Robert Anton Wilson's data is wrong, Dr. Weil is full of shit and since you found one article disputing part of one episode of a show then you think all of it is a lie and the Dr's featured in it that spoke in clear unedited sentences about their findings must be wrong. I think if anyone has some beliefs here that they don't want to let go of it's you.
Nuff said -
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Re: Consumer Alert-- Homeopathy is a Fraud
Tue, April 15, 2008 - 3:30 PMI don't consider people "nuts" simply because they believe God created man, people's faith is subjective and their own business. If someone claims they have faith in homeopathy, that's their business. It's when people make claims that their faith is evidence based and supported by science - and then totally dismiss scientific methodology in favor of personal experience as a form of objective fact - that I begin to find it problematic.
I'm curious, what belief do you think I don't want to let go of?
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Re: Consumer Alert-- Homeopathy is a Fraud
Tue, April 15, 2008 - 2:58 PMChris - I do understand what you're saying, I just don't think the evidence supports the kinds of claims you're making. Understanding and agreeing aren't the same thing, though people often confuse the two. I have my personal experiences and experiences with patients regarding what does and doesn't work regarding chronic pain, and both the limits and potential of mood on health. But like I said this is just anecdotal evidence, as your experiences are, and I might use it to base theories upon but if the evidence disproves the theory I have no problem letting it go.
I love people who say "so you can have the last word" since all it indicates it's important to the person thinking about it. Since it's meaningful for you to do so, thanks I guess!
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Re: Consumer Alert-- Homeopathy is a Fraud
Sat, April 5, 2008 - 5:38 PMwell, ive heard many arguments about this, but I have had amazing experiences with homeopathy. I had a fever of 102 and it was cut to 99 in 10 minutes when I had the flu. I took oscillococcinum. I've also taken homeopathy for colds, sleep, headaches. pain, and swelling with great results. It's also been given to animals with great success. Its hard for a placebo to work on a horse.
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Re: Consumer Alert-- Homeopathy is a Fraud
Sun, April 6, 2008 - 3:12 AM -
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Re: Consumer Alert-- Homeopathy is a Fraud
Wed, April 9, 2008 - 8:33 AMwww.holisticonline.com/Homeop...cal.htm
jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/conte.../279/9/707 from the jama
www.lyghtforce.com/King_bio/research.htm
gullible? ok if its gullible to watch people heal, where they had not previously then yes gullible all the way!!! :)
next time you have body aches/fever/chills try oscillo watch yourself get better faster than before. Just this weekend I fought off a cold with homeopathy, my glands went down as did the aches, placebo? well then placebo rules, because I am not sick, even though I had a sore throat and huge glands...
last, please explain to me how placebo works on animals?
:)
ps look at studies in europe where homeopathy is mainstream, lots of good research. -
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Re: Consumer Alert-- Homeopathy is a Fraud
Wed, April 9, 2008 - 10:38 AMI think like any healing tradition, there is not one singular modality that's a cure-all - something that answers, treates or solves everything.
I thinks it's naive to believe that anything is.
~V~ -
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Re: Consumer Alert-- Homeopathy is a Fraud
Wed, April 9, 2008 - 11:00 AMWestern (or modern medicine) has not been around as long as other forms of medicine. However it still has saved or improved more lives than all other forms of medicine combined over all of history, especially in the feild of emergency care. Just here to put that out there and acknoweledge that fact. -
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Re: Consumer Alert-- Homeopathy is a Fraud
Wed, April 9, 2008 - 11:22 AMThat's a pretty broad statement, there Humming Floater. I don't see how you could begin to prove that it's a "fact." Besides, "Western Medicine" evolved from what science, anatomy, surgery & the healing arts had discovered over hundreds & hundreds of years. I'd agree it has saved millions of lives & in many ways it is a great thing, but just b/c Western Medicine is great doesn't mean we should throw everything other alternative & often complimentary form of health & healing out the window. -
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Re: Consumer Alert-- Homeopathy is a Fraud
Wed, April 9, 2008 - 11:35 AMI don't throw them all out the window. I do believe that alternative medicine should be subject to the exact same regulation that Rx. medicine must undergo. Why not have the same standards? Especially for the safety of consumers. The idea that because something is "natural" that it should be given a pass by regulators is not acceptable. That is why I wrote my lawmakers to support regulation of alternative medicine. On a personal level I have run into way too many quacks who treat modern medicine as if it was evil incarnate. I am all for intergrating other forms of medicine as long as they are proven with the same methods that Rx must go thru. -
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Re: Consumer Alert-- Homeopathy is a Fraud
Fri, May 2, 2008 - 11:09 AM
"I am all for integrating other forms of medicine as long as they are proven with the same methods that Rx must go thru."
Wow.
I'm pretty sure everybody on this thread is studied enough to know that the "regulations" modern pharmaceuticals are "subject to" have little or no meaning beyond marketability.
"Big Bucks, Big Pharma" is one film that comes immediately to mind, though the evidence against many major pharmaceutical companies is rampant, regarding especially the actual validity of their "newest" drugs, which are very often just the same old thing repackaged.
I know everybody already knows this, and it's really a little off topic... I just was surprised to see somebody imply that the regulatory process of the FDA is somehow "stringent"...
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